Higher pulse - lower pulse?
Maximum fat burning - maximum exhaustion
The ideal pulse for an ideal training
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Interview held on 11.10.01 at the climbing centre in Schlieren near Zurich (Switzerland) with
Ueli Schweizer (US), 49 years young and qualified Swiss gymnastics and sports teacher, leader of advanced training at SAFS, lactate pioneer and expert, developer of Natural StrengthR for Schwinn Fitness International, coach for hobby-sportsmen and professionals, performance diagnosis and training planning, internationally known consultant and seminar lecturer
and
Viktor Denoth (VD), 57 years young, university sports teacher at the Academic Sports Association in Zurich (ASVZ), specialised instructor in alpinism, climbing, performance tests (Conconi), strength training
FT: Ueli Schweizer, how high should the ideal pulse be for a correct training?
US: Basically, I never start from the pulse but from the lactate values. For example: the highest heart beat with a lactate value of two millimols - e.g. respecting basic endurance training and optimal fat burning - amounted to 185 beats per minute while the lowest was of 90 beats a minute. These are enormous differences. If these two people were to train according to heart beat categories or tables, then they'd be way off the mark.
FT: The first answer already speaks of numbers that apparently scare the fitness club owners because they cannot cope with the lactate topic yet nor with the correct training pulse, which is - in some circumstances - connected to a correct burning of fat. Viktor Denoth, you are an instructor at the Academic Sports Association at the ETH (= the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology) in Zurich, Switzerland. Has the sports teaching qualification been overtaken yet in matters of lactate and other tests? These have in fact been actively supported by Ueli Schweizer for a number of years now.
VD: We carry out a lot of Conconi tests weekly and if we can't find a clear threshold, then we perform the lactate test, too. This is a very individual and optimal education for the people. If we (as instructors) must give an input that is higher than the pulse rate during classes - for example during spinning - then we just start from the old and proven formula: 180 beats minus ones age. Today we say this: 170 minus half one's age, because elderly people must keep their heart beat a bit higher. This is excellent as a general rule and applies to most people.
FT: Ueli Schweizer, one doesn't hear as much of the Cooper and Conconi tests as one did a decade ago in the fitness industry. Have they gone forgotten or do most trainers prefer the lactate measurement?
US: Not really, but we're also looking at it in a detached way. You can still find everything you wish in the fitness industry, from the cavemen to high-tech people. If we want to control training correctly, then there are various means of doing so, e.g. through the speech test, the breathing test, etc. If these tests are well under control, then they're also quite reliable. Furthermore, as Viktor just mentioned, there are the various pulse rate formulas. But basically, these tests are accurate only with a third of the population. Then we have the Conconi test. One can see the anaerobic threshold through the blip and this is how the percentages of the training's intensity can be determined. On top of that, there's the lactate-level test, indisputably the most accurate method in science, and spiro-ergometry (particularly in America). The latter has the disadvantage of being rather imprecise when it comes to the lowest intensities, because people cannot really keep their breathing under control. So we have a wide range of offers available. Each trainer can decide for himself what kind of method he wishes to follow. Personally, I believe that the lactate measurement is going to be our future, because it's the most accurate and harmless method available, and I'm only satisfied with the best of things.
FT: It was known that he who was fit could run more than three kilometres in 12 minutes (Cooper test). Nowadays, in order to keep control of your cardio-training, you already have to have a polar watch on your ergometer when you training in the fitness club or even when you go jogging. Viktor, what do you have to say about the new training method - the lactate-level test - in order to find out the ideal training pulse, which has been promoted for years now by Ueli Schweizer?
VD: The question is whether a participant in mass sports must be supervised and advised as extravagantly as a top athlete. Does one actually have the time and the means required? Or are conventional methods enough, methods that function with top athletes too? Well, if I undergo a Conconi test without lactate and my threshold is up at 170 beats, then this threshold must really apply. It doesn't matter if the beats are 168, 166 or 174 because the decisive factor is the tolerance that one grants one's customers.
FT: Don't you think that Ueli's method is rather exaggerated, a bit too much on the high-tech side?
VD: If someone has the means and the possibility of doing so, then I think the method is good. We measure a great number of top athletes and know the value of their lactate. They come to us for a check-up and only undergo the Conconi test. On the basis of this test, we can then establish how reliable this testing method is, and we use the other data we have for comparison.
FT: Ueli, with your lactate-level test you're very active in the fitness industry especially. Do you think that it's on the right track or do you believe that - as far as some sections are concerned - it's actually ahead of what is presently on offer for the sports teaching qualification?
US: It's clear that whoever wants to survive in the market's wilderness must be a lot better than those owned by government enterprises, paid - incidentally - through our taxes. It's just a coincidence when you find someone good among government officials. In private enterprises, only the best instructor survives, the best manager, the best accountant and the best financier. There are successful fitness chains, too, that are actually not very good as far as training is concerned, but are brilliant in management. It's very important for me to add something regarding the tests, because I'm involved in a totally different field. The not so current Cooper test and the highly up-to-date Conconi test are maximal tests, in the sense that they have a "relatively" high death risk; to put it plainly, 1:100'000. In Switzerland, we carry out several hundred thousands of maximal tests (Cooper and Conconi) per year, so a death could occur from time to time. I cannot permit this as a fitness instructor and that's why these maximal tests are taboo to me. When I undergo these maximal tests together with my friend and colleague Dr. med. Frederic Peroni (Italian doctor specialised in sports medicine), then he always checks out the ECG-exertion and the blood pressure level; he does so even when the patient doesn't want to pay for it, otherwise he can't answer for the test.
Apart from this, we also have people who are really out of shape and who wouldn't be able to cope with a similar test if it weren't supervised. The measurement results of "normal people" always amaze me. In fact, we've determined that we cannot even recommend jogging as a health training or a competitive training, but only quick walking at the most. People simply aren't up to it. And it isn't so evident to find a person nowadays who can easily admit that jogging in the woods is out of the question at 40 years of age, is it?
VD: It's said that everyone over 40 who has never practised sports before should undergo a check-up at a sports physician's. But basically, we don't have the reservations that Ueli has concerning the maximal tests. I have been working for 30 years in an academic sports federation, with a number of participants equal to 30'000, and until now there has been a single death case. This man would have died anyway, even if he hadn't undergone the test. In the human body there are workings that become extremely active shortly before death. In fact, doctors say that human beings are a lot tougher than what is normally believed and I don't have the slightest reservations in performing this kind of test on them.
FT: Ueli, aren't you being a bit too cautious? I still recall the story that happened 10 years ago, when the backache syndrome was circulating in the fitness industry. Back in those days, this is what it meant: out with all dumbbells from the fitness clubs! Then came the training for the back on specifically designed equipment. But it was established pretty soon that this wasn't the ideal solution either. Today, we work with three-dimensional training equipment, because we realised that it corresponds to the human being's natural movements. If trained correctly, the back is unbelievably strong, so quite a considerable amount of damage should be inflicted on it before something happens. Ueli, are you trying to scare the wits out of a whole fitness industry?
US: No, but I'll repeat what you just said: the back is strong if trained correctly. I don't really want to invite trouble by saying so, but I think that the human being can be divided in two categories: the first category trains too much and too intensively and the second category doesn't train at all. It is my task to bring down the first category from its far too high intensity and to motivate the other category to start some training. The human being is relatively strong and doesn't die so easily, so in that sense, I agree with Viktor. But a single one to die is one too many. I will never forget a day of trial: a test was performed at the sports centre of the ASVZ under the patronage of the Tagesanzeiger (famous daily newspaper in Zurich) and the Winthertur-Versicherung (large insurance company). I still remember it so vividly, because it was the wedding day of one of my best friends. It was the hottest summer day in the year and everyone was sweating profusely; it was on this extremely humid day with the ozone levels soaring to the stars that the Conconi test was carried out as a preventive medicine action for the whole population. The people, aged 30 to 70, were supposed to run around the oval track at top speed for 12 minutes. Unfortunately, one of them died. If this had happened at a fitness convention, then it would have provoked a storm of indignation.
FT: So now we have to be very careful not to scare anyone! We don't want people to stop training or going to a fitness club. Viktor, is it true that the sportsmen who train only aerobically and neglect rapid strength are just wimps?
VD: The lower the intensity, the smaller the activated muscle mass becomes. In certain sports, various muscle fibres are needed and if these aren't trained, then it becomes impossible to make use of them later on, during an athletic activity or competition. Therefore, extensive training is fine, but only together with appropriate strength training or intensive training in the field of strength endurance. I can't imagine simple extensive training, because nowadays, young people want a polyvalent muscle, preferably enduring, strong, coordinatively well-controlled, flexible and as small and light as possible. It can be compared to Formula-one, where weight is the decisive aspect. In order to train a universal muscle or a metabolism, various components are needed as a basis, just as Ueli said at the beginning.
FT: So this means that not only the ideal pulse is important but the training programme, too. Ueli, what would the correct training programme in a fitness club look like?
US: In the first place, I would like to go back to the Formula-one example. Sometimes I really think that people build up a Formula-one in their body but with the brakes of a bicycle. Consequently, the conditions aren't right. Basic endurance is essential. It makes a human being better, stronger and more efficient in all fields.
One can only achieve one's goal if one trains correctly. If one remains with basic training, then one will never become strong, fast and flexible. There shouldn't be any strength (enduring strength) and stamina (perseverance) with maximal hyperacidity in any sport, not in professional sports and not in health sports. This anaerobic-lactational metabolism, i.e. this powerful hyperacidity, should be avoided as much as possible. I believe that a good training programme for a beginner should look like this: first of all, there's the basic endurance training with an intensity of up to two millimols of lactate concentration in the bloodstream. According to Viktor, this would be a pulse rate of 170 minus half one's age. As far as this goes, I agree. It doesn't only apply to sport activities, but to everyday life. And it also confirms the success of my seminars, whereby people realise how important basic endurance training is in all possible fields. I think that Erich Zabel is the best racing cyclist and sprinter at the moment. He merits a place before Armstrong and Ulrich because he always wins the sprints, no matter whether at the beginning or at the end of a tour. He even won the classic Milan - San Remo. How does he manage to win these sprints after 220 km and 5 hours on the bike? Because 90% of his training is in the basic field. This is why he's less tired than the others at the end of a leg and manages, at top speed, to win these challenges intelligently, with lots of concentration and strength. He knows that, among the many talented and equally fast sprinters, the one to win after 220 km is the one who is fittest on the saddle! He who is tired is never going to win! It's the same in normal life: the loser is he who is tired. The winner is he who has a good basic endurance.
FT: Viktor, what's your idea of the best basic endurance training?
VD: Basic endurance can be trained on different pieces of equipment: e.g. on spinning bikes and ellipticals, treadmills, ergometers, etc. A certain muscular mass must be moved over a longish period of time, some 45 minutes or more.
FT: So one should be able to keep the same pulse rate for at least 45 minutes, for ex. while riding a bike, running, etc.
VD: The pulse rate needn't be that constant.
FT: Does this mean that one could do strength training, too?
US: No, because the same muscular mass must be working dynamically. One cannot exactly perform press-ups for the upper part of the body and squats for the muscles in the lower part of the body if one wants to train endurance.
FT: So the same muscles must always be trained in the same training unit; consequently, the heart is trained too, because it's a muscle after all.
US: We now come to a topic that's often misunderstood: the effect of endurance training on the heart. If necessary, strength training could still be authorised for the heart, but endurance training brings the most advantages when the muscular metabolism is in the burning of fat and this happens after a half hour roughly. The fat metabolism reaches its maximum after an hour and a half. But this is too much for other components, so the optimal lapse of time is set between 45 minutes and 1 hour. The same muscles and at least 1/6 of the body's muscularity must be constantly active dynamically. This mass would amount to e.g. a leg, but since one doesn't usually train with a single leg, the training is done with two legs. Muscular metabolism is important. So what actually happens in the muscle? This is another point of dispute in sports medicine: what is it that limits performance? Is it muscular metabolism? Or the heart? Or the substances in the brain? There's lots of disagreement regarding this issue. But it isn't really important for the deeper intensities. We need to know the muscular metabolism of our client, our sportsman. And this can be measured accurately enough through the lactate-level test.
FT: So would it be correct if our readers trained for at least 45 minutes on an ergometer before going to the strength training room?
US: Yes, and you can also do it the other way round.
FT: I want to put one thing straight. Studies clearly show that the women and men who attend a fitness club are basically interested in the burning of fat. This means that first of all, one should train the muscle and tire it, e.g. through strength training or bodybuilding; after this it is possible to train aerobically for 45 minutes, i.e. on an ergometer or a treadmill. This is the way to lose an ideal, or highest possible, amount of fat. If you do it the other way round, the body tires and burns too much glucose and too little fat.
VD: Investigations have shown that the body is able to adjust to the burning of fat if the intensity isn't too high. However, in the case of an extremely high intensity while training, the body is subject to extensive strain and as a consequence, it immediately adjusts to the burning of fat.
FT: So how high is the percentage? Does it depend on the pulse?
VD: We know that the burning of fat is higher than that of carbohydrates during extensive strain and a low pulse rate. At 300 watts, i.e. the threshold, the total turnover of fat is higher but not proportionally. So if someone rides a bike for an hour at 150 watts, the amount of fat used is lower than what would be used for the same length of time at 300 watts. Proportionately, the person would need more carbohydrates, but since the performance is a lot higher, more fat is needed, too.
US: First of all, one should take a close look at the general environment of the trainee. During our business seminars we test all participants and we often observe that their condition is catastrophic. For instance, the intake of oxygen on eight people out of ten is far too low, i.e. it's bad. These are the people who work a lot, who are often under stress and are subject to an incessant flood of irritations and never get enough sleep. Regarding a research made on the latter, it observed that people today sleep an hour and a half less than they did a hundred years ago. In fact, the greater part of working people is constantly tired! And if I now try out Viktor's fat-burning-training on the highest threshold, which is where people burn most of their fat, then the result is going to be their collapse within the first three months. Furthermore, they quickly get into overtraining, because they lack the basics and then it even gets to their aerobic structures and their health.
FT: Would you care to add something, Viktor?
VD: Jean-Pierre, I only answered the question you put to me "how do you burn most of your fat?". And as Ueli said, I would never advise anyone to train on their threshold. I just wanted to make this point, so there's no room left for any kind of misunderstanding.
US: The problem with the threshold is that one easily runs into overtraining. Nowadays, there are 29 tests to calculate the threshold, so it's next to impossible. We can establish it empirically after a long procedure, but we'll never be absolutely positive about it. The Conconi test is yet again more advantageous, because it shows us this threshold. If we consider the course of the lactate curve, then we can see that the line is flat at the beginning but goes steeply upwards in the threshold area, which means that he who is five to ten heart beats off the mark is in the anaerobic and lactational sphere and in a very short time will be excessively overacidified. People who are too fat and have the problem of having to burn it certainly aren't capable of keeping their pulse constantly on the threshold. In addition to this, these people are exhausted and would never be able to bear this kind of training twice a week.
FT: So most people are subject to overtraining.
US: Here's a nice example on the matter: we tested a handsome and fit-looking 40 year-old man, who jogged three to four times a week. He had a maximum oxygen intake equal to little over 30 ml/min/kg. That's bad. He had obviously been beaten to a pulp and his jogging had practically been of no use. During a longish conversation, it became clear that the man was suffering from lack of sleep. He was an obsessive jogger who got up at five in the morning to do his training.
VD: Like our former government president does, Adolf Ogi.
US: But Ogi is able to bear it, he's a genetic freak. We must be extremely careful if we consider these people as examples. There are some people, the genetic freaks, who need nothing more than four to five hours' sleep; the standard lies somewhere between seven and eight hours. Whatever falls outside this frame is an exception. But let's get back to our example. This man's obsessive training only brought him unhappiness. Later on, we determined that he was always in the threshold area, if not actually over it. So, to sum it all up, an exaggerated training three to four times a week, not enough sleep, too much work and additional family stress is simply useless; it's a lot better to sleep rather than train this way!
FT: This echoes Churchill's "sport kills".
US: In fact, he did things correctly: he walked, thus keeping the lactate level at 1,5 millimols, the active area of recovery.
FT: Does this mean that in the future, in order to establish the ideal training pulse rate, fitness club members will undergo lactate measurements only?
VD: In the case of a new customer, one should ascertain the capability of performance through the Conconi and lactate tests. After having received the values, all of them are pushed to the limit. Let's consider this: suppose that a customer's threshold on a spinning bike is - as is usually measured - at 155 (while sitting); if the person can then effortlessly pull through a one-hour spinning lesson keeping the threshold at something between 165 and 185, then we're running into trouble. Should a Conconi test be carried out while standing on the bike? There's usually bad ventilation in the spinning rooms, everyone is sweating, there's no airstream and there's the pressure of the group. Consequently, the values determined in the laboratory must be interpreted accurately and specifically according to the corresponding sport and environment.
FT: The longer I listen to you and the more I'm convinced that this is the situation common to many fitness club owners so it's obvious that certain questions will always be cropping up. Are we trying to encourage a heart attack in some people or are we just training beyond our health possibilities?
VD: Six years ago I saw - by chance - the first spinning bikes in New York and now we have 120 odd pieces of them in our small stronghold at the ETH (= the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology) in Zurich, Switzerland. I'm responsible for this discipline and recommend 170 pulses minus half one's age. This is a general rule that works and there's no overstrain laid on the people. Anyone who knows his own body well can burden himself with more, on the evidence of Ueli's statements. 170 pulses minus half one's age certainly corresponds to the level of fat and doesn't run the danger of risking physical damage.
FT: The participants at the ETH control their training through a polar watch and a polar belt. If one reaches one's limit, a bleep is heard. Can't the pressure group drive some people to continue in spite of the bleep? They'd only need to turn off the watch.
VD: The signal tone hasn't even been switched on. That's the good thing about the spinning bike, that you can't read the speed and the number of watts. Thus, a Tony Rominger can pedal close to a weak person and no one can detect the slightest difference on the bike.
FT: But if the signal is turned off, how is one to know if one is training in the correct zone?
VD: At the beginning of a lesson I always tell the participants: your value is 170 minus half your age, plus ten, i.e. you need to add 10 beats to your basic pulse. Calculate it!
FT: Ueli, do we train the people in the fitness clubs in such a way that they become sick?
US: No, certainly not. The human being can bear quite a lot. The point is that he should train in the most optimal way possible. People never have enough time and they don't have the interest, either. Some American studies claim that the people who aren't at all interested in training and the ones who would need it urgently are the ones who hate high intensities. The ones who come to us and stay with us are masochists, the number of which amounts to approx. three to five percent of the entire population. They just want to torture themselves. And that's why most people relate training to suffering, struggling, pain (no pain, no gain!), aggression and calorie killing... but they don't really want that. It is our task to make it clear and understandable to everyone that we can offer a high-quality training without these side effects. Viktor Denoth's clientele is made of young and sport-enthusiastic people. However, if the fitness scene is to keep on growing, we must appeal to those who don't know the first thing about training but know something about movement. Everyone wants well-being, but not through struggling and suffering since there's plenty of that in life. Perfect training in the area of endurance has got nothing to do with suffering and to speak of lactate values only doesn't lead to anything. The important thing is to present physiological and biological backgrounds in a persuasive manner: correct endurance training makes you healthier, nicer, younger, more intelligent, stronger, happier, more balanced and pleased with yourself, and you'll live longer. And these are simply the dreams of humanity, aren't they? Endurance training together with correct strength training just boosts all of the above, it's like a miracle! Nowadays, we know that one can be fit at 70 years of age as one is at 20, but only with correct training. Viktor is the living example of this: at 70 (not so long to go) he'll be a lot fitter than 90% of the 20 year-olds. This means that he's lived like a 20 year-old for 50 years.
This is what interests people most, not lactates. But in order to achieve this goal we must offer a high-quality training: the more a person is out of shape and the more important a high-grade series of tests become.A
FT: Ueli, you said that if the human being doesn't torture himself and feels well while jogging or spinning, then he's training with the right intensity. So why do we need these lactate or Conconi tests?
US: Because the human being, especially the male, doesn't "feel" himself any more. He realises that he still has a body only when he bumps into a wall. We live in a time and culture where everything is connected to struggles and fits, to toil and trouble. Even religion plays a role: what's nice and fun can't really be of any use. Fundamentally, we must work on the culture of training and change our way of thinking. Everything that is good for us needn't be tiring at all; in fact, correct endurance training is just nice.
FT: But there's a world of difference between you two. Ueli, with your arguments you want to convince the greater part of the population that doesn't go to a fitness club yet (80%) to get to know something about it. Viktor, on the other hand, educates future sports teachers and fitness instructors and wants them to be led to their limits as Formula-one pilots. And now I would like you to kindly comment on:
Recovery of the immune, hormone and central nervous systems.
US: The results of the training on these three systems haven't been researched in detail yet. Even though they're of fundamental importance, nine trainers out of ten don't know anything about them. What we know at present about the measurements is that the immune system is strengthened through an aerobic training of 45-60 minutes (with up to 2 mmols/lactate). To be precise, the immune system becomes weaker immediately after the training, but it recovers very quickly and becomes a lot stronger than it was at first. If one trains for a longer time and/or more intensely, for instance for three hours, then the immune system weakens. So if people come to us with an immune system weakened by stress and overtiredness, we have to adapt the training correspondingly, in order to avoid further weakening. On the hormone system: the testosterone level is lightly or strongly heightened after an aerobic training of 45-60 minutes. The testosterone level drops if the training is too intense. And who's interested in training oneself impotent? On the central nervous system: the point here is tiredness. A too high lactate level is tiring. In fact, the Bayern Munich football stars who just hang around after three games in ten days simply stun us. What we mean is that they've reached the limit, they can't take any more and are mad at the whole world - and yet, they earn an incredible amount of money! But they can't put up with the situation any longer, they're tired in their minds but don't really need psychologists. They just need a deeply intensive endurance training and an intelligent regeneration, plus a good recovery and lots of sleep.
VD: Even professionals are overtrained. Each organism has been functioning in the same way for centuries now. There are no exceptions and therefore I can only support Ueli's statements.
FT: Lactate values and adrenaline.
VD: The lactate values, dependent on the pulse rate, should be supervised. Each sportsman should know, on account of his tiredness symptoms, the lactate values in relation to the pulse rate. Then he can also see the intensity. A too high lactate obviously requires a longer period of recovery. After an intensive training circle, one should have a break of at least a day. He who keeps to this rule doesn't even become dependent, as is the case with the so-called lactate-junkies, the masochists and 3% of the world population.
FT: Ueli, aren't we condemning positive things here? I'm thinking of the endorphin hormone. Training is fun after all. But we're demonising the lactate-junky here because of his feeling of happiness. But the normal trainee is able to reach this feeling too. Aren't we mixing up a few things?
US: We've already said that we make people happier, more pleasant and more balanced. And this is the effect of the hormone of happiness; but everything boils down to the dosage. If one is training as hard and intensely as one can, then one produces a great deal of endorphin which leads to euphoria. He who knows this feeling quickly becomes addicted to it. So one has to be extremely careful.
FT: Is that how you become a junky?
US: No, you don't become a junky that way, you become depressed. It's the same thing with drugs, one has to heighten the dosage constantly - if not, one becomes depressed. At a certain point, the body isn't able to recover any more, because it was trained far too intensely and for an excessive length of time. If the body reaches the situation where it is too tired, then it stops producing endorphin or produces a lot less of it than usual. It then shows as motivation loss, extreme ups and downs and, in serious cases and genetic structures permitting, depression and lethargy. So, the euphoric feeling due to an extremely high training should only be allowed when the body is well rested and healthy, and when it's happy in both private and professional spheres. This euphoric feeling is exactly the same as when you're truly horny, but it can only be borne three times a year, not more.
VD: I can only confirm this as far as my personal experience goes. As a sports teacher I practise a lot of sport, frequently in the areas with a high pulse rate and high lactate values, i.e. skiing, climbing and spinning. I'm a very active person, I'm addicted to it and if I'm interrupted while training I become really unbearable and slightly depressed.
FT: We'll have to keep an eye on this interesting topic in the near future, too. We have discussed some topics in detail, but others have only been briefly mentioned. Philosophical thoughts have flooded in too, and if you think of it, they cropped up while discussing lactate and endorphin. Now I would like to ask all of you to sum things up with a conclusive sentence on the topic of the pulse. How high should an ideal and healthy pulse be for a training?
VD: We recommend it should be 170 minus half one's age. The most important thing is to drink lots of fluids in order to avoid dehydration and to be fit for some strength training.
UE: The ideal pulse rate is there where people feel it's right. The moment training becomes a struggle or suffering, then it can't be considered an endurance training any more. If people can start to feel this, if they realise that they're feeling well now, it means that they've been training correctly.
FT: Thank you very much for the interview.
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